Talk:Leonard L. Church
Ranks are not used in Titles. the reason is rather obvious. in a military environment, Ranks are subject to change. this is a constant on various Wiki's --WhellerNG 19:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC) I believe Church has been promoted to Captain as of Reconstruction, which would explain why he was sent alone to a new base for Blue Team instead of to another team like Caboose. I'd assume he's a Captain considering the running gag of him claiming to be a Captain. But it's highly likely he was promoted when Sister was sent to join the blues and promote someone to captain at the end of Season 5 of BGC. 19:11, 16 July 2008 (UTC) NOTE: THIS IS NOT A TRUE STATEMENT CHURCH WAS SENT TO A SEPERATE BASE BECAUSE HE IS THE ALPHA AI AND THE DIRECTOR WANTED TO KEEP HIM IN A CONTROLED ENVIRONMENT There's no evidence that Church was promoted. If you want to speculate, the one who was most likely to be promoted was Tucker, who was the longest tenrued soldier still 'alive' at Bloodgulch, with Church having already been declared dead. Doc was told to report to Tucker as well when he was sent to Bloodgulch. Tucker also apparently the only soldier from Bloodgulch to be assigned to a regular squad, as he calls in late in Reconstruction saying that he and his squad found what they were looking for.-- 03:22, 8 February 2009 (UTC) *Tucker is definitely the one who got promoted, since in Relocated, he has become a bad ass who is incharge of an important mission. --Bron Hañda 10:53, September 23, 2009 (UTC) anyone noticed that church duel wield smg's in rvb animated rebel pyroTALK I think Church was promoted. his first body could have been a clone, assuming he realy is an AI My guess is they originally wanted to make him a ghost... but then over time the story changed.. *This is definitely true (Church was meant too be a ghost) because he said it was hard to manifest..... and more importanty, he wandered around the afterlife and even met Sarge when Sarge was shot in the head and was revived by Grif. Dabears17x 17:16, July 20, 2010 (UTC) maybe... I wanted to post this before leaving it but it's a fact, right? Church is the oldest Member of the blood gulch being 1000+ years old, or the youngest as of dieing early 11:21, April 15, 2010 (UTC) Morality Program It's possible since Church is an AI he may have some sort of morality program he is unaware of preventing him from shooting anyone who does not pose a serious threat to him or someone else. The only person he's killed on purpose is one of the Wyomings, and he managed to shoot the Meta once.Macman39316:27, July 19, 2010 (UTC) *You forgot when he did that awesome shot, when he shot Caboose with that magnum shot in the first battle since Doc came to Blood Gulch. that actually sounds probable, as he was originally a unsc or whatever AI, but why wouldn't the other AI fragments inherit it? other than that its actually a good thought.Kre 'Nunumee 16:52, July 20, 2010 (UTC) Its possible that it only pertains to potentially lethal shots (or rather intentions) so that if he intends to kill them he can't hit them but if he intends only to harm them then hes perfectly capable of making the shot.Kre 'Nunumee 17:31, July 20, 2010 (UTC) Expanding this article I have noticed that this article does not cover much of the events that take place after Reconstruction. The obvious reason is that Alpha Church died in the EMP but I believe that this particular article should cover the events experienced by both Alpha-Church and Epsilon-Church throughout the RVB seasons. My logic behind this is that we have three articles about this character, we have the Alpha AI article, we have this article (Leonard L. Church) and we have Epsilon. This article so far only really covers Alpha-Church's experiences but in that sense it does not cover anything about the Alpha being tortured, that information exists in the Alpha article, the reason for this is because this article should be more geared toward the events that are going on presently in the seasons and not so much the unexplained backstory. While the Alpha article would describe the events of the Alpha AI such as how he was tortured (and possibly including Seasons 1-6), and while Epsilon would cover his own backstory (and possible Season 7-current) I feel that this article should be reserved to describing seasons 1-current and not divulging too deeply into the Alpha's torture or Epsilon's insanity because this article is more for "surface" fans of the series and should account the events of the character. At the same time it should also be noted that Burnie Burns describes Epsilon-Church and Alpha-Church as the "same person but separate" and to quote Epsilon "My name is Leonard Church." This is even more apparent now in the more recent episodes as he acts a lot more like Alpha-Church did and seems th have all of the memories of the previous seasons. If you think about, the purpose of Epsilon form the writer's perspective was to resurrect Church and re-enter his character into the series. Let me know what you think about the idea. 12:19, July 28, 2010 (UTC) Its true that Episilon-Chrch was just a way to bring Church back, but as Burns says they are different. What makes you think he is regaining the memories of previous seasons? so far he has only shown to remember stuff from before Blood Gulch.Ironreaper 00:43, July 29, 2010 (UTC) He said he doesnt mind keeping Tucker around even though he only no Tucker for a short time ~JG~ 02:41, July 29, 2010 (UTC) Well yes they are different, but the differences are those that I feel would be more appropriate to have addressed in the Epsilon and Alpha pages because Burnie said they were different AND the same. The differences are more backstory based, which would not be as appropriate for this article since I think it sould cover the events that happen in the seasons and not go so deeply into a backstory that hsn't been completely explained yet. As for how he seems to remeber more, he refers to F.I.L.S.S. as Sheila which he wouldn't really do unless he rmembered his experineces with her in the BGC. In addition to that his conversations with Tucker seem more and more similar to how he used to hold conversations with him as opposed to thinking that he is Captain Folowers, not to mention he recalls to Tex about how he "puts up" with Tucker suggesting he rmembers being anoyed by him in the BGC. Even they way he interacts with Caboose seems more like Alpha Church, in addition to that he clearly holds memories of being on the blue team and fghting the red team ad he refers to them how Alpha Curch used to, by calling them "reds" as opposed to "other people" like Epsilon did in episode one of Revelation. Also he seems to remember being told by Washington that he is the Alpha AI because in Episode 14 Tex pointed out how the alarm said "level Aplha" when she was on a rampage and Epsilon-Church responded by saying "You know I didn't think about that." which meant he knew the signifigance of the name Alpha. Also in the sponsor exclusive eddition of Episode 14, Tex asks F.I.L.S.S. for the fastest route to the freelancer comand facilty and she replies by saying that they haven't had any contatct with the facility for "over 40 security cycles" and that it has been assumed destroyed, Tex reacted to this in a confues fashion and Epsilon Church said "The guys kind of....blew that place up." now technically they may have not blown it up but that does mean he holds some memory of the EMP going off and by extension the death of Alpha Church 03:33, July 29, 2010 (UTC) None of these are definitive proof he has regained his memories of BBC, though. The biggest problem for me is that Epsilon was simply not at BG. He was locked in storage the whole time. He had little interaction with Alpha and Alpha certainly never said he downloaded a copy of his memories into it. His behavior mimicking Alpha is expected, but does not mean he is regaining them. He refers to F.I.LS.S as Shelia is a stretch cause caboose called her that already. If he called her Sheila out of the blue that would be conclusive. He may just prefer Sheila or not want Caboose to get confused (and talk). His relationship with Tucker may be passed off as merely a developing relationship, which progressed faster that Alpha and Tucker's did because Epsilon is not as cynical and aggressive, mostly because he didn't have to go through BG like Alpha did. Remember, while it may not have been very long since grif is still moving the bodies, we don’t know how long a gap there is between recreation and revelation. Just look at Grif and Tucker. in Recreation they're bagging each other, but by Revelation they seem like best mates (Grif admits his first girlfriend was a man, something i would never tell a soul. . . . not that that happened. . . . . lets move on). Epsilon saying "reds" can be purely convenience as far as we know. The line "other people" referred to the reds and blues (it was meant to differentiate them from them worshipping aliens, since he liked them more), so saying he “clearly holds memories” is not certain. The reference to Alpha may more be about the torture Epsilon partially remembers when forcefully reminded, like when he first saw Washington. As for the "blowing up", well Caboose spent a lot of time explaining there past adventures and the others problem explained that already. And note he says "the guys", not himself. If he had memories of the Freelancer complex he would happily take credit for blowing it up, given how much he hates Freelancers and wants to look like a hero to Tex. Then again, Tex wanted to access the records, so he may have been shifting blame to not get beaten up. So it can go either way. The most important point for me is that Epsilon is more then an excuse to bring Church back. He is crucial to the plot. He is what Wash and the Meta are after. He contains all the other AI's (which Alpha did not), which is important because it is heavily hinted Tex was one of the AI's from Epsilons comment "i had to get you out of my head". And, like it or not, his backstory is important in how he interacts with other (he hates Wash while Alpha kinda likes him), because the other AI's may affect the plot and because he may go nuts if he ever fully remembers Alpha' torture and Epsilon’s subsequent insanity in Wash’s head. Damage control: To protect myself, I must remind others that rooster teeth does stuff up slightly when it comes to “amnesia” subplots. Remember BBC where Caboose forgot Church after his mental image of Church was killed? Well soon after caboose began remembering things he forgot purely because Rooster Teeth couldn’t keep up with the previous seasons. They admit its impossible to keep track. After that they dropped the idea suddenly and Caboose remembers everything. So don’t be surprised and get all “Ah Ah. You were wrong” to me if the things mentioned above are slips and they give Epsilon his memories back purely because Rooster Teeth can’t be bothered keeping continuity. Ironreaper 12:36, July 29, 2010 (UTC) That is a possibility but we won't necessarily know that unless they state so in the DVD commentary. Now we could get into a big “Ah Ah. You were wrong” discussion about Epsilon remembering things, but I think we both agree that that would not be very productive and would just waste text and we would also be better off waiting for better evidence such as if he encounters the Meta and rmemebers his identity. I would just like to point out that weather or not Epsilon has memories of the events in question, what he does have seems to be accesable at this time because "The encounter with Agent Washington Jared loose many of his memories." so IF he has memories from the Alpha, then he would have easy access to them. Anyway the main point that I want to address is that yes Epsilon does serve a point to this story and is not just a method to bring Church back, but he is both, I am not saying delete all of the Epsilon article's information about Epsilon Church but I think that what goes on during the seires itself should also be documented in Leonard L. Church's profile because since Epsilon does serve a major role in the story and has unique relationships with characters such as Washington that is reason to have the information on Epsilon's profile, but what about after that? At Comic Con they told us the cast for Season 9 and it was all members of the BGC so unless characters like Washington return for Season 9 as well, Epsilon's differences from Aplha would decrease. My point is since they are the "same but different" the information should be on Leonard L. Church's profile and Epsilon's profile, but not Alpha's profile. 13:07, July 29, 2010 (UTC) I get your point (I think). Once season 9 comes, the writers will probly return to the BGC style for more accesablity and any of the AI suplots will all be finished. for all intents and purposes, their wont be any difference between new and old Church. Im not clear wat you meant by "the information should be on Leonard L. Church's profile and Epsilon's profile, but not Alpha's profile". I think your trying to say Church should be treated as both Alpha and Epsilon while their respective pages deal with the different AI's. i fear that may be too much for one page if everything is on there and it may confuse new people, but some decent spoliers warnings and links may fix it. Try and explain that to one of the admins and you may have something.Ironreaper 13:53, July 29, 2010 (UTC) Thank you that is my point since I think that for the sake of the series, not every fan cares as deeply as us about the A.I plot and I feel that the more basic character information about the current events shoulc be covered on one profile, Church's profile doesn't have much info on his histoy as the Alpha to begin with since it doesn't hold as much importance to the BGC and newer fans who don't know as much might be more confused if they did so I think that we should cover the current events of Epsilon on Church's profile while not diving into Epsilon's back stoy as much. Do you know any admins I can get ahold of and which onees do you think would take the most care into listening to the proposal? The main reason I ask is because based on some of the edits of the admins, there are some that would just turn a deaf ear to me I suspect but I don;t think that everyone is like that so any suggestions of admins who woud listen to my suggestion? 14:04, July 29, 2010 (UTC) Try WhelerNG. Try and explain you're points above and how it will streamline the wiki. Otherwise they may think youre mistaking the different Churchs for the same thing or some noobish thing. Dont hold your breath though. This wiki is a bit less formal and less concered with edits then say Halo or Mass Effect wikis.Ironreaper 14:31, July 29, 2010 (UTC) Thanks, I left him a message about it, I was sure to go into detail about the importance of it, I left out anyhing about Epsilon Church's interaction with other characters since we really don't know if he remembers Alpha's Church's events or not. I provided a few examples of how this change would be productive to the wiki and I quoted Burnie Burns about the relationship between Alpha and Epsilon and how such a relationsip should exist between the three profiles for this character. I think I might have went a little overboard with the size of the message but I really wanted it to be understood that my suggestion was serious and coming from someone who understands the story. Also you are right about the formality of this Wiki, there still hasn't even been updates to Epsilon's profile that cover the events of the latest episode yet. But i still hope that I can accomplish some improvement to this place. 16:15, July 29, 2010 (UTC) Well in ch 14 it seems like everyone filled epsilon in on what happened at blood gulch and throughout reconstruction and I think Church is about the charector in general not epsilon or alpha church. We should have all churchs info on his page Blood Gulch and Reconstruction only on Alpha's page and Recreation- Current on Epsilons we cold at least plit Church's page into Alpha and Epsilon events.Sniperteam82308 16:28, July 29, 2010 (UTC) Well I'm not sure if Epsilon was filled in or not because he doesn't mention it, only Tex mentions being filled in and we don't even know how much she didn't know anyway, she could have only needed filling in on the events of Seasons 6 and 7 or she could have required knowledge of the entire BGC all over again. Not to mention if Tex and Epsilon were filled in by the same people, then why did Epsilon Church know more than she did? Anyway that aside, what you said about the three different Church profiles sumarizes my essay (comedic exaggeration) perfectly. I am not as worried about putting the events of the BGC into the Alpha profile (mainly because we haven't learned everything about his backstory yet) but I do think that Leonard L. Church should cover season 7-current as well. 16:47, July 29, 2010 (UTC) No its a diffrent Tex and they filled her in between chapters13 and 14 thats why Epsilon sad Yea we dont really seem to do much do we. Sniperteam82308 17:09, July 29, 2010 (UTC) I am aware of the possibility that this is a different Tex but that does not mean she remembered nothing, we know she rmembers breaking out of command and escaping so she had some knowledge of past events so she could have memories of the BGC. Epsilon said that line as a joke about how most episodes consist of characters standing around and talking but that doesn't mean that he was just filled in about that, he could have known about it before even releasing Tex, if Epsilon somehow gained more memories from the Alpha then he would have found these memories while looking through his memory banks. Anyway let's not stray this discussion away, this is about why the page Leonard L. Church chould be updated with events of Seasons 7 and 8. 17:18, July 29, 2010 (UTC) Lets get something clear here Ok. now Leonard L. Church and the Alpha are indeed the same character, they should all be in one article. the only reason that they're in two different articles is because I have yet to fold them together. Epsilon is not the Alpha. there for, not the Leonard L. Church from the Blood Gulch Chronicles. Epsilon does not have any of Alpha's memories. Leonard L. Church is dead. period. so nothing from beyond Reconstruction should be in this article because it doesn't apply. get that? Also, the Tex from Revelation is ambiguous. we don't have enough information about her yet. but more than likely. it is not the Tex from BGC. --WhellerNG 23:08, July 29, 2010 (UTC) "Epsilon does not have any of Alpha's memories" you know I could be very very rude about how that statement is incorrect but I won't, I will just state that Epsilon IS Alpha's memories so he does have all of Alpha's memories, he just didn't have access to them upon being awakened, currently it is ambigouous to weather or not Epsilon has all of Alpha's memories but it is clear that he remembers events that took place after he became a separate fragment from Aplha, such as when Tex escaped from the Freelancer outpost when she was almost executed (which it should be noted actually happened after Epsilon went insane and was put in storage), if your only argument against this is that Epsilon does not have Alpha's memories then all it would take is for Epsilon to regain Alpha's memories (assuming he doesn't have them already) and then there would be no noticeable differences between the characters other than their backstory, reinforcing the fact that the Profile of Leonard L. Church is more of a personlity profile than an A.I. profile as it details the story of the persona of Leonard L. Church. You can't deny that Epsilon's purpose (one of them) from the viewpoint of the franchise as a whole is to resurect the character known as Leonard L. Church, even if as a different incarnation, there is no denying that he died, but that does not mean he stayed dead. From the viewpoint of a computer, Epsilon has the memory of Alpha, which can be interpreted as the data of the Alpha, besically if you backup files and wipe your hard drive then restore your files after, that is basically what happened here but not all of the files (memories) have been restored and unlike you I have a quote from the character and a quote from the writer of the series itself to support this "My name is Leonard Church" -Epsion "same person but separate" -Burnie Burns 01:01, July 30, 2010 (UTC) Alright now I know this is off topic but it isnt the same Tex what she meant bye the last time I tried to escape this place was chapter 10 thats why she said "those idiots jut got in my way." then she was in a diffrent version of the place plus she needed to be filled in from the rest of the others you wouldnt just forget the 5 most important years of your life. So I say Wheller if you wot let Epsilon on Lenoard's page then mabey we should make a page called Tex(Revelation) and get rid of that information from BGC Tex's page. Sniperteam82308 02:12, July 30, 2010 (UTC) It is not confirmed that it isn't the same Tex, but it is highly likely, but we can't make a change that drastic unless we know it is fact. When tex was referring to "last time I was in a place like this" she meant the training facility because last time refers to the time before now, now she is in the facility, the reason she went nuts is because she was acting on instinct believing that she was in danger so she must have rememebred that the last last time she was in a freelancer building, her life was in danger. 02:24, July 30, 2010 (UTC) Well we should have a sponser ask burnie Sniperteam82308 02:33, July 30, 2010 (UTC) I am a sponsor but it says in his FAQ that he won't answer questions like that as we should find them out in the episodes so if it is true, then it will be explained, if they assume that we should have figured it out (which we haven't) then we will listen to the DVD commentary as that will confirm it. All we can do is wait until we know more, we don't even know Tex's real A.I. name, yet so have patience. 02:48, July 30, 2010 (UTC) My apologies for the double post but getting back to the subject on hand I have thought of the perfect example that would get my point across. In Halo CE there is a map called Blood Gulch (obviously) now in Halo: Reach, there is a map called Hemorage (a variant of Forge World that is a faithful remake of Blood Gulch), Alpha-Church and Epsilon-Church have the same relationship as Blood Gulch and Hemorage, their background (envorinment but I use the word background for a reason) may be different (Hemorage has more grass and the rock formations are not made of redish brown dirt) but their content and structure is exactly the same. In the same way Alpha-Church and Epsilon-Church have different backgrounds (different backstories) but they have the same character content as they have the same personality and relationships with the other characters. Basically Bungie put Hemorage in because fans wanted to play on the map that they loved so much in Halo: CE, similarly, Rooster Teeth created Epsilon-Church because the fans would not want the series to be without some form of Church, Epsilon has other purposes in the story, but he didn't need to become Epsilon-Church to fulfil those purposes, we could still have the plot concept of Washington and the Meta serching for Epsilon and still have Epsilon represent the memories of the Alpha, now as you stated Wheller, Epsilon does not remember the events of the BGC (ambiguous) but that is the only thing keeping their actual character different, if Epsilon gains these memories, then that difference is eliminated meaning that both Alpha and Epsilon are Leonard L. Church but that Alpha is not Epsilon and that Epsilon is not Alpha. Here is the idea I am tring to reccomend, I will post the info box that contains all of the Blue Team members notice how the three profiles in question (Alpha, Epsilon, Leonard L. Church) are organized: Now look at the character box for A.I.'s here Alpha and Epsilon are separated because this is where their differences in background stem from: 02:48, July 30, 2010 (UTC) Now you're just being a Smart ass. You idiot, I MADE the templates like that, obviously you didn't read my entire first post. Yeah, Epsilon is the Alpha's memories. but he DOES NOT have any memories of what the alpha experience during the blood gulch chronicles because he was put into storage. I don't have a lot of patience for people who don't bother to register anyway. so see ya. --WhellerNG 04:33, July 30, 2010 (UTC) Okay first off, is it weird that I find the fact that Caboose told Espilon stories about everyone, a sufficent enough reason as to why Epsilon has memories of BG and past events? Anyways I have issue against the entry in the Alpha section about the Recreation trailer being non-conan. That comment seems like a improper inclusion or infusion of a speculation added to to the comment of Burnie confirming the death of Alpha Church. Making it seem like Burnie says the trailer is non-canon (making it the first one to be non-canon) where it might just be a cause of improper/misuse of grammar skills or someone overusing commas rather then just starting a new sentence. Also, recreation starts off after where the trailer leaves off and references moments that happened in the trailer. Does Burnie actually say the trailer is non-canon or is that just a bad edit that misleads readers to think Burnie says the the trailer is non-conan, rather then a random editor adding in a counter argument or thought about Dead Alpha Church via the White Church in the trailer? --TommyGunner23 :Have you listened to Epsilon recite some of the stories that Caboose told him? Cabooses telling of a twisted version of reality doesn't count as actual memories. (Hell he left out Tucker and said that the Red team were pirates. and that Grif's name was spelled with two fs, and his armour was yellow.) the point of that trailer is to point to the reintroduction of a Church-like character, (Epsilon), and Tex.--WhellerNG 19:43, August 6, 2010 (UTC) :I always thought it was cannon except for the scenes featuring Church and Tex everything else was : : Hey, I didn't say they were perfect. Plus it was done in the joke/expostion style the Roosterteeth guys always do. Epsi-Church never goes into too deep of details and he could have gotten enough of an idea from Cabooses storys. He learned enough to remember Simmons, that Sarge was at least the leader, and Captain Butch Flowers who he confuses Tucker for. Plus he could have gotten the better details off camera like Tex did when she was brought up to speed. But anyways my main point of the is trailer is: does Burnie really say all that after the part about Alpha Church being dead? If not then that part should be edited to show they are actually seperate sentences. Because it seems weird for Burnie to make a statement but then give a counter to his own facts in a suggestive matter in the same statment and switching from a first person to a third person in the same statement. It just seems like a bad edit to me. If my guess is right and they are seperate then it should read more like this: "Burnie Burns confirmed in an interview that Alpha Church died in the EMP. Though this is offsetted by the fact that a figure of Alpha Church comments on his legacy but he does say he is dead which may mean that the scene (which was in the Recreation Trailer) was non-canon and was used to promote the revival of Church in Recreation." BEHOLD THE POWER OF A PERIOD. Now its two seperate things. Seriously the following sentence doesn't seem like something you summarize from a statement but rather just a fan bringing to light a possible contradiction and giving a possible explaination as to why by saying the the trailer or ep.0 is non-canon. :--TommyGunner23